And more fronts

I mentioned in the last front that we didn’t start out with good fronts, so I’ll provide pictures for comparison. As most show pictures are side-shots, I’ve had to dig to find adult or semi-adult front pictures.

Some of these pictures are old and small. Digital photography has taken great strides in the last dozen years.
This is Klark, Phi-Vestavia Kallel. His front looks better here as an older dog than it did when we were showing him as a youngster. We used him one time on Kacy’s litter sister Tess (Ch C-Myste Thistle and Shamrock). Most of the puppies in that litter had decent fronts and we gained type which has carried down to future generations. His front has come back to haunt us from time-to-time. Klark’s problem: long pasterns with too much turn out. Go back to the “good front” pictures: what we are looking for is wrap of the chest and then straighter pasterns coming down.

Klark’s daughter Flirt: Ch C-Myste Kiss and Tell. Flirt had a good front for what we had at the time. She doesn’t have too much turn-out. But: her chest is round rather than having a nice deep point and egg-shape that is desired.


How does this . . .

. . . grow up to be this?

This is Flirt’s son Milo who was major pointed before things went awry.
And we still don’t always guess right what is going to happen. My current thought is that the keepers are those puppies with nice straight fronts. If you keep a puppy with wrap and what looks like acceptable turn-out, you will get more.


Another Klark grandson from a different sister in the litter. He also inherited some of Klark’s front.


Now this I believe was an injury. A group-placer as a puppy, I placed Stratus (Ch C-Myste Trnluk Clouds Illusions) on a trial basis with a lady in Canada. She let me know that he had fallen/jumped off a grooming table, and he spent several months convalescing before being returned. As Strat was over two when he was placed, there shouldn’t have been so much change.


A pretty little pet with a wonderful personality, a shallow chest with too light of bone. This is a litter sister of Dakota’s dam Baha and of Kristine’s Riley.

Skye. A pretty, pretty boy whose wide straight front came right down the line: Smoky to Kacy to Elvis to Skye. On the other hand, one of the best rears you could ask for.


I just thought I’d throw in this picture from 2003 when Phoebe was in her cast at the (late lamented) Portland bench show. Phoebe, BTW, is a half-sister of Klark. Both were sired by Inky (Ch Phi-Vestavia Inkling).

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15 Responses to And more fronts

  1. dreameyce says:

    I do have better pics of Traum’s front (which is worse now….) if you want it instead of the ‘puppy’ front. I was thinking posting his pics for this very reason! LOL He’s a good example of what we don’t want.

    And yes I named names, but I don’t care. He’s a happy neutered pet, for a reason! heehee

    He looks like Grandpa Klark in so many ways. It’s really amazing to see the Klark pics (This is one I hadn’t seen!)

    OH! I have been wanting to ask, how has Klark held up into hold age (Front-wise) I don’t (and have never) let Traum jump, but I am always concerned over his easty-westy front, with his barrel chest. Klark will be a great indicator of how Traum will keep aging.

  2. Traci says:

    It’s really helpful to see these pictures and descriptions… and there are NO hurt feelings at all..(in fact, thank you for using my dog to show me!). I’m not understanding exactly where the pasterns are tho… I looked in the picture below and didn’t see them… I clicked on the glossary link and didn’t find a definition for them… is it what we might consider the ankle? From the foot to say (on Sedona) near where the tan starts (using the leg with longer tan as a visual)?
    And riddle me this, Batman… how does a bitch with solid bone, and a dog with tree trunk bone create Bitch #2? It’s just not right, I tell ya! LOL
    Hair creates an illusion of pointy-ness…. cuz in her photos after she’s been blown out she doesn’t look so flat… but i guess that’s a “Benefit” of looking at a nekkid dog.. . you see the nekkid truth! 😉

  3. C-Myste says:

    I’m not that sure that Sedona has less bone than her dam. It could just be the longer pastern giving that illusion. And an open coat can surely give more appearance of bone than is actually under it.

    Pastern (per glossary) is the portion of the leg between the “wrist” and the “foot”. In the labeled skeleton the wrist is the joint labeled as Carpus, the pastern is the Metacarpus, the food (toes) are Phalanges. The pastern is the equivalent of the back of our hand, but on a dog is the bottom section of the leg, above the foot.

  4. Traci says:

    ok, NOW I get the pastern… so with that, I would have to say that both of my younger dogs have longer pasterns than “ideal”. That’s something I can look for when breeding Sedona too… I’m already looking for big bone, great hips, good rear angulation, so now I can look for short pasterns too 🙂

    i *love* that you’re so willing to discuss and show and teach, Carolyn… so many aren’t. Thank you.

    So question about the one dog (was it Milo?) who seemed to have nice bone and a decent front as a younger dog….. how does a dog lose bone? He looks like as he matured, his bone reduced…

  5. Baledwr says:

    Body grew…bone didn’t 🙂 You actually will see lots of puppies who look right and then seem lighter with age. However they never seem to gain it the other direction…

    Klark hasn’t had any front soundness problems (tho he did have back issues), but he lives the life of a spoiled couch potato. We wouldn’t have put him in an agility home 🙂

    Of course looking at THIS picture I could have finished it…he was tube long and narrow however and it looked way bad when we placed him. Plus he was not very brave, much worse than Phoebe.

  6. Traci says:

    I guess what you’re saying makes sense in terms of bone as they grow… cuz looking at all of mine compared to their puppy pictures they’ve all got less bone (by appearance) now than they did as puppies… if only they kept that tree trunk looking bone! 😛 This has been a great thread!

  7. C-Myste says:

    This is called “passing the torch”. I don’t plan to do much breeding in the future myself, so I need you youngsters to carry on.

    Post about breeding and rescue to come soon, once I’m not embroiled in the middle of something.

    And did I mention that my SIL Leslie and her SO Terry are actually going off to live on the road in a motorhome? Jealousy abounds.

  8. Traci says:

    so now WE get to be the puppy pushers and supply YOU with dogs?? 😉 (tee hee hee)

    SO jealous of Leslie and Terry! One day I long to do that as well!

  9. LĂ©o says:

    I was just looking at the IS and thinking we really do need the drawings redone. The front on the male looks ok but does anyone else think the female’s shoulders look wrong? Does that qualify as a loaded question? (smirk)

    Seriously does anyone else think that?

  10. C-Myste says:

    Does it look like the shoulders are loaded? Or does it look like they both have itty-bitty heads which makes everything else out of proportion?

  11. LĂ©o says:

    here’s the pdf

    I looked for an image of loaded shoulders without any luck. Maybe one of you guys can find one.

    I saw a set pointed out to me at the Nationals a couple of years ago and to my memory it was a lot like the IS girl.

    To my eye it looks like too much muscle. Too puffy. There seems to be a lack of angles where the point of shoulder would be felt. It should have the impression of a little muscle layered over a bone protruding toward the viewer.

    I’m looking at Kayla, Celie, and Pan as I write this. It’s possible the artist worked from poorly lit photos or was trying to make her look more feminine by softening those angles. Or maybe the model was fatter than my girls. I’m thinking though it’s a problem managing what is called foreshortening. And she got flattened out a little too much. It is very challenging to get a 3-D feel working with a 2-D medium. But it’s pretty basic visual art too.

    On the male it looks to me like muscle layered over bone which feels more right to me.

    I also think the bitch looks more round than eggshaped. Again this could be problem with foreshortening.

    And yes, I learned a year or more ago that the head is too small.

  12. LĂ©o says:

    Ok. So maybe I am misinformed about what loaded shoulders look like.

    I found this.

    It’s for chichuahuas but a couple of places described loaded shoulders the same way.

    “…too much muscle on the shoulder pushes the tops of the shoulder blades apart. These ‘loaded shoulders’ are heavy, rather than lean, and result in a lack of balance. The shoulder point is tied in closer to the ribcage and the elbow is forced out of line, which is an ugly fault. A dog with loaded shoulders may also appear overbuilt at the front, tailing off to weaker hindquarters.”

    Question: In a dog like the Corgi where the upper arm wraps around the ribs what would loaded shoulders look like? It would make sense to me the muscle would overdevelop throughout the shoulder and upper arm. Again less bone visible or palpable around the point of shoulder.

    Am I right?

  13. dreameyce says:

    Carolyn/Mandy, Galaxy would be considered “loaded shoulders”, right?

  14. Tavs says:

    I’m learning a lot, Carolyn! Some of these fronts are really surprising. I didn’t realize things could change so much from puppyhood to adulthood. I’ve never even seen some of these really close set fronts before, having only been to shows, and managing to end up with Phoebe, Marcy and Cosmo (darn those balls, he could have shown, but I am glad he is laying here on my feet instead as I type this).

    Side note, Phoebe is so gorgeous. I can’t believe that was so many years ago. I hope I get to see her at the end of the month.

  15. Anonymous says:

    Hi – Jen, Klark’s spoiler and attendant, here. Carolyn et al, this is very interesting!

    Klark has been sound in front, though he does toe out more as he ages. I will try to get a picture of him to Carolyn soon.

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